South Africans Abroad
A show for expat South Africans and anyone interested in the experiences of those who have made the move overseas. Each episode, we'll hear from South Africans who have left the country to pursue new opportunities, be with loved ones, or simply follow their dreams. We'll explore the challenges and triumphs of life as an expat, and the unique perspective that comes with being a South African abroad. Whether you're an expat yourself or just curious about the expat experience, join us as we delve into the motivations, struggles, and joys of being a South African living overseas.
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South Africans Abroad
Balancing Two Worlds: How Rob Built a Business Connecting South African Talent
What does it mean to truly come full circle in your expatriate journey? Rob Malitz reveals the unexpected twists and turns of a life spent bridging two continents while never losing sight of his South African heart.
Rob's story begins like many others – a young professional heading to London for what he calls "the partying year." But his path diverges from the typical narrative when he decides to return to South Africa after experiencing crime in London. "If I'm going to be surrounded by these elements, I'd rather actually go home to the country I love," Rob explains, challenging the common assumption that people leave South Africa primarily for safety reasons.
The conversation takes us through Rob's remarkable career transition from "boring old accountant" to successful recruitment entrepreneur. His candid account of founding Red Eye Recruitment during the credit crisis – "My business plan suggested nobody would be silly enough to do it" – reveals the blend of courage and strategic thinking that has defined his professional life. Now operating internationally, his business serves a unique purpose: helping South Africans gain global experience without permanently leaving, while also assisting those who wish to return home.
Perhaps most compelling is Rob's evolving definition of success. Where once it centered on material wealth, it now encompasses family well-being, respect from colleagues, health, and the flexibility to enjoy life. His advice for expatriates – "You are a guest in their country" – speaks to the humility required to thrive abroad while maintaining your South African identity. As Rob puts it, "When you arrive back in South Africa, part of me reattaches to myself," capturing the enduring connection many expatriates feel to their homeland regardless of where life takes them.
Whether you're contemplating a move overseas, currently living abroad, or considering a return to South Africa, Rob's journey offers valuable perspective on crafting a life that honors both your roots and your wings. Join us for this insightful conversation about what it truly means to be a South African abroad.
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Welcome back to South Africans Abroad a show for expat South Africans and anyone interested in the experiences of those who have made the move overseas. Each episode we'll hear from South Africans who have left the country to pursue new opportunities, be with loved ones or simply follow their dreams. We'll explore the challenges and triumphs of life as an expat and the unique perspective that comes with being a South African abroad. Life as an expat and the unique perspective that comes with being a South African abroad. I'm your host, warren Burley, an expat South African who, like many, followed the dream of working overseas. Whether you're an expat yourself or just curious about the expat experience, join us as we delve into the motivations, struggles and joys of being a South African living overseas.
Speaker 1:Today's guest is a man who came full circle. Rob left South Africa, went abroad, then moved back to South Africa to create a thriving business. Then he moved back to the UK, but never stopped flying the flag for SA From boardrooms in London to bras back home. Rob remains proudly South African, connecting talent across continents and proving that, no matter where you live, the spirit of home never leaves you. Rob, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Warren, thank you so much for having us on the show. I've heard so much about you and very excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Do you want to just tell us a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2:Let me see the background Rob Malitz who is he?
Speaker 2:So I finished my articles in South Africa and then, after articles, I spent a year in the UK more like your partying year and then the audit firm that I was a part of invited me to come back to them in Atlanta, georgia, where I spent two years in the US as an accountant and auditor, thereafter decided to go back to the UK, where I spent another five and a half years in the UK and working more as a project accountant.
Speaker 2:Five and a half years in the UK and working more as a project accountant, and after that, believe it or not actually left the UK because there was more elements of crime than I care to imagine. So I always said well, if I'm going to be surrounded by these elements, I'd rather actually go home to the country that I love. So I ended up going back to South Africa and spent another 18 years in South Africa. I started off as an accountant there and then was headhunted of all places into recruitment, then spent another 18 years in South Africa, after which my kids were a little bit older then and just wanted to give them some international opportunities for study. So I moved back UK side for another adventure, and that's where I sit today.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's quite a journey. I just want to go back to your life in the UK. You wrote a couple of articles a while back and some of the things really stood out for me. You said you had a couple of tough experiences in London burglaries, assaults, theft. How did those shape your decision to go back home? Did they change your sense of what safety really means?
Speaker 2:You know, absolutely, and just remember that you've got a very, very different lifestyle when you live abroad. There's not all the comforts and the niceties that you have on the other side. So you know, I think also your attitude determines your altitude. And in my heart of hearts I was out there, but possibly the negative energy was possibly attracting the crime. In fact, my name is Rob and I actually thought it was becoming a suggestion as opposed to anything else. So I thought you know what, let's go back to the sunny shores of South Africa. At that point and you know, at that time I was also just getting married, or just married at least, and we wanted to experience life around our family as well. So that's another reason why we moved back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a sad reality. You know a lot of people move overseas because they think it's a lot safer, but sometimes it's not the case. You also mentioned in your article that you'd get comments like with that type of luck, you should move back to South Africa. How did those kinds of comments affect your outlook on both countries?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an interesting question and, like I said, you know, I think it's all about your attitude and your energy. So if you're negative in the one place, you're probably going to be negative in another. And the one thing I loathe is, as an example, those people that move overseas and try to justify their decision to move overseas and end up slating South Africa but supporting the protea, supporting the spring box. You know what? If you're going to do that, don't support anything. Move and move outright. But at the end of the day, I think every place has its pros and cons.
Speaker 1:To be entirely honest, I mean you did mention that. You know, despite all the glamour, the ski trips and the summers in the Riviera, you still went back to South Africa. What does that say about what truly matters in life, I think?
Speaker 2:over time, what truly matters has changed. You know, remember, I moved back in 2005. Since then I've had the opportunity of having kids and all of that, and you actually, over time, you change what is important. You want your health, you want your family, you want to be happy. It's not always about how wealthy you are and all of that, but always, coming back to South Africa, there's something so special and some people might disagree with me, but when I arrive and the customs officer, I greet him in his language and he smiles back at me and it's always a wonderful process and you get all these people at the airport. Yes, they want to offer you rides and all that, but there's an energy about arriving back in South Africa. Even these days, it feels like when I leave South Africa, part of me still stays on that tarmac and when I come back, a part of me just reattaches to myself. So there's so much about South Africa that I will always promote, you know, and in particular the, the people of this country.
Speaker 1:And that brings me to an interesting point. You know, with people slating South Africa and obviously people warned you about going back to South Africa, especially on the job market what motivated you to do it?
Speaker 2:anyway, yeah, at that point in time there was a lot of negativity and I think you've just got to stay confident and true to yourself and your abilities and the confidence and the positivity. So what I ended up doing was I saved up for many months, thinking that I was going to be unemployed for probably eight months. When I came back because I was the wrong demographic, I was the wrong gender, the wrong ethnicity, etc. Half the value of what I actually should have been earning. But I decided you know what, I will prove myself and I will show that I will be good in this role and actually within the first nine months I had about three increases in that role and ended up earning what I should have been earning in the first place.
Speaker 2:So it's just about believing in yourself and having that confidence and putting yourself out there and anybody coming back. Look, the job market is really really tough at the moment. The economy is really flat, but there's an opportunity for everybody. So I do say to people that lower your cost standards a little bit or your salary expectations, and you may be better off.
Speaker 1:Okay, because I know you transitioned from finance to recruitment. Yes, that's right. What drove that pivot and how did you find your footing in such a different industry?
Speaker 2:At the time I was working in the asset management industry as a project accountant and I was approached by an international recruitment company. And the chap said to me listen, I met you a year ago when you came back to South Africa. I enjoyed our meeting. Would you be interested in joining us as a recruiter to head up our banking and financial services division? To which I actually said to the chap well, you must be mad, are you? How does your mind? I'm just a boring old accountant. Why would you think of me?
Speaker 2:And well, I'm not going to use the verbose terms that he used, but he retorted and said well, verbose terms that he used. But he retorted and said well, when I met you, I thought you were a rubbish accountant with a great personality, so I thought you'd be better in recruiting. So, in all fairness, I did turn him down actually and I thought you know what? I'm not a sales person, I'm not this kind of people's person. But actually he approached me another twice, fed me some beers at one of the meetings and slowly the seed was planted and started to germinate and I thought actually, maybe I can make a difference to people, maybe I can change people's lives. There's nothing better than finding somebody an opportunity and changing their lives and changing their family's lives? And actually when I got into recruitment found that I hit it like a duck to water. So I was very, very chuffed with the industry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean 90% of the business deals in South Africa happen over a good cost of logger right. Oh, indeed, indeed, okay. So let's talk about where you're at right now. I know you own your own business. Do you want to just tell us a little bit about that business?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so what happened was I was in recruitment at this international recruitment firm for about two and a half years and I wanted to be more South Africanized. I wanted, you know, I've always had this inherent passion for South Africa, and so what I ended up doing was leaving them and setting up a company called Red Eye Recruitment, and that was in the heart of the credit crisis. So most people thought that I was crazy. Who would start a business in the heart of the credit crisis? So most people thought that I was crazy. Who would start a business in the heart of a credit crisis? My business plan suggested that nobody would actually be silly enough to do it. So therefore, my startup competition was going to be a lot less, and I ended up just taking the plunge and taking a chance. I knew I was good enough For the first time. I knew I was confident enough to grow and build a business, and all I really wanted to do at that point was earn the same amount of money that I'd earned in the previous company, which it actually ended up that in my first five months, I ended up earning the same as I did in the previous year. So I got very, very lucky very, very early and I ended up just building this beautiful business that was more BEE focused and more South African focused and more South Africanized if there is such a thing and over time, then I started focusing on executive search and talent mappings and Africa work. And then I actually had a business partner that we set up, a company called Reda Holborn, which was more divisionalized, that focused on HR and IT and finance and legal and marketing, et cetera. So we actually started growing really really nicely and marketing, et cetera. So we actually started growing really, really nicely. Where am I today? Well, gee whiz, I can tell you so many stories about the ups and downs of recruitment and the ups and downs of running a business and the ups and downs of running a business in South Africa especially. It's very different to the rest of the world.
Speaker 2:It was about two years ago 2023, my wife and I had discussed giving the kids an international education and then we decided that we wanted to actually move to the UK to educate them and, at the same time, I wanted to build my business in the UK and Europe. One of two things. Number one helping South Africans that want to be more globalized, not to take South Africans out of South Africa. That's against my passion, but give that brain drain an opportunity to get the brain so that they can also move back at a later stage. The number of people that want to do that is immense.
Speaker 2:And then also just to find those South Africans that also want to move back to South Africa and I know that a lot of people say nobody's coming back, everybody's leaving. You will be amazed how many people are coming back, for whatever reasons, whether it's they can't find a job, or Brexit has kicked them out, or they want to be with their family. They miss the sun, they miss the people. There's so many elements like that. So, yeah, so I've set up the international business and then I travel back to South Africa once a quarter for about three, four weeks.
Speaker 1:So basically you help people that have gone back to South Africa get work. That's right.
Speaker 2:And I also do it the other way around where companies in South Africa want to expand their offerings abroad and I actually help those mid-size or startups to actually grow their businesses with people overseas. And that's all about mainly helping South Africans, Obviously visa dependent because it's become a lot more stringent abroad with those visas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to say with the whole visa process. I know in the States things are clamped down a lot, especially with South Africans. So a question for you how do you balance the chaos with the opportunity?
Speaker 2:When you say the chaos, what chaos are you referring to? The traveling on my personal side, the family, or Well, both.
Speaker 1:So you know the personal side with the traveling, but also with all the new regulations and things, visa opportunities and visa opportunities have been taken away, like the Brexit thing. We had somebody on the show not so long ago who's actually having a problem in Sweden with Brexit. They've been kicked out. So how do you balance all that?
Speaker 2:Look, I haven't encountered too many of those because a lot of the people have got the British passports or the EU passports that we do assist already. Some of the clients that we've got abroad are comfortable to sponsor the people or send them across on and forgive me, I don't know the exact terms, but those highly skilled migrant visas or the transfer visas, the H1s, the L1s, et cetera. So that is the case, but admittedly it has become a lot tougher and obviously there's all the double tax agreements and estate duties, et cetera, et cetera. We can get into the taxes, but it becomes very complicated. So, effectively, what we do try and do is help those that actually already have the visa processes in place or the passports, and that's obviously what I've had to do as well.
Speaker 2:You know from my side of things it is a lengthy process and a costly process as well. By the way, if you are going to work visa route, you, as an example, in the UK, you've got to pay your national insurance upfront per person in your family for five years. You have to pay it upfront. So it's very, very costly. And then if you haven't got a settled status, as an example, it's costly for the visa and all of that and you've got to get all the share codes. It's a massive legal process and a lot of people are not too keen to go down that road.
Speaker 1:Do you help navigate that whole process for, say, a South African who doesn't have a visa and is interested in working in the UK, and obviously vice versa. But do you help them with all of that?
Speaker 2:We don't help them personally because that's not the function of our recruitment business. We do put them in touch with the right legal team to assist them and to facilitate. But, generally speaking, the clients that we deal with have got their global mobility teams and they normally sort that out through the bigger corporates. Okay, so, rob, let's talk sort that out through the bigger corporates.
Speaker 1:Okay. So, Rob, let's talk for a minute about your visa. Yeah, what visa are you on and how did you get there?
Speaker 2:So, look, I had to go through the sponsorship process because, unfortunately, even though I lived in the UK many years ago, at that point in time you could use the EU passport and stay very comfortably, and then, after we left, it didn't really make any difference. But some people were fortunate enough to get that settled status. I think it was 2019, 2020. I had set up my company in the UK pre-Brexit because I knew that there was going to be some further compliance issues and all of that, and then I obviously did everything through my business at a later stage when we moved across. Okay, so yeah, but it is a process and it is quite a complex process admittedly Okay.
Speaker 1:So now I want to transition into moving back to the UK. What was your motivation for that?
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, my motivation or my wife's motivation? I think that's two separate things. So I get told what to do and I just do it, as do we all. Yeah, right, but all jokes aside, you know, I think we've traveled a lot with the kids to the UK and they always had a vision of studying and going to university in the UK. So what we thought was you know, instead of waiting for that particular point, let's get them into the school system a little bit early on, so that we don't break up the family early and we can all be together.
Speaker 2:And I always wanted to expand my business into the UK and Europe anyway. So it was a great opportunity to get the kids that international education that they want and integrate them into the system before the university time and at the same time, while I'm young enough and can still do it, to set up the business on that side. And my wife always loved the UK as well. So for us it's less about immigration and more about an adventure and a journey. So wherever we go, we try to be happy, we try and enjoy it and we try and make it an adventure, because you don't know what tomorrow holds. So we just have that adventure for ourselves.
Speaker 1:And whereabouts in London do you live?
Speaker 2:now we are in the north of London, so still within the greater London area, what's called greater London, within the M25. We're in a town called Elstree, which is pretty close to probably the biggest town that people will know is St Albans, 25 minutes by train into central London, which is amazing. I can see all my clients there, whilst living in the countryside as well. So it is really a beautiful little town, summer more beautiful than winter, winter's a little chilly, but you know what? We take it on the chin.
Speaker 1:So do you encourage people to move back To?
Speaker 2:leave the UK to go back to South Africa. Yeah, you know, again, I'm the biggest advocate of South Africa and I never encourage anybody. You know I never try and persuade or dissuade anybody from anything. There's nothing worse than a naysayer and say you must go back and you must do this. But I think over time people also realize the pros and cons of South Africa. You know you'll always get those that left and never want to go back.
Speaker 2:But so many people have their families in South Africa and they miss the good bride place. And you know there's small little things that you miss about the people. The people here are always happy and friendly and smiling. People care a lot. People go to each other's houses you know it's such a social aspect. And then obviously, family is a big one. A lot of people, their parents start getting a little bit older and they need to go back to be with the parents and it's just a lot easier. And then there's just the cost of things in South Africa. And yes, south Africa has become very, very expensive in comparison to what it was a few years ago with all the tariffs and just general expense of things. But there's also the lure of having a nice retirement or a nice sunny vibe in South Africa. So I think that's also a big lure, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think you're living the best of both worlds. To be honest, there's not much you can miss about South Africa. Do you have a lot of South African friends and colleagues and stuff in the UK?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Absolutely, and I was actually just saying to a client here in South Africa today that you know you're attracted to your own and you know, in South Africa, when you live here, you're either a Bali or a Cape Tonian or a Durbanite, and all that. When you go to London or anywhere abroad, you are mates with the South Africans. When you live in the UK, you're mates with South Africans. There's no divide, and so your bigger social circle is generally South Africans that you have at your homes.
Speaker 2:With that said, I have made a very big, conscious effort to have friends that are British. I play golf with very, very awesome British people. I've formed part of a circle there and you've got to try to integrate yourself. Just remember, I mean, the one thing that I do say to people when you do live in another country is you are a guest in their country. A lot of the times, south Africans go abroad arrogantly and they'll go we this and we that and puff out their chest, and you've got to realize that if you go to somebody else's home, you've got to respect them and respect their home, and I always say that the most successful people that live abroad are those that are very, very respectful of the other culture and just enjoy it for what it is.
Speaker 1:That's why you're there, after all. You know. That's fantastic advice, rob, and I wish a lot of people would adhere to that. Rob, I've got a question for you. What does success mean to you? That's changed over time.
Speaker 2:Warren, success 10, 15 years ago was how much money I had and how many properties I had and what kind of car I had and how I looked. Success today is very, very different. Success to me is have I got a well-rounded family? Have I got kids that have got good manners? Have I got a team of staff that respect me and like me and have changed their lives? And it's not about having a thousand people on your staff and these massive salaries and all of that. So success is different for different people. But for me, am I healthy? Am I enjoying life? Have I got the flexibility in life to actually do the things that I want to do? Because so many people make that mistake of trying to earn so much money in life that they forget to actually have fun. So if I'm having a little bit of fun with a wonderful family, with good health, able to travel, for me that's the biggest success ever.
Speaker 1:And yeah, that's amazing, Rob. I don't know if you've heard a lot of the episodes, but we always end off the show. On one final question Do you think the grass is greener on the other side?
Speaker 2:I'll answer that with something somebody said to me. I was at the gym last night at Old Edge, virgin Active, and I haven't seen this one chap for ages. And he said to me I was at the gym last night at Old Edge, virgin Active, and I haven't seen this one chap for ages. And he said to me what do you prefer, london or South Africa? And it was. I didn't even think about it. I didn't even think about it. I just said South Africa.
Speaker 2:And you know, for certain people and many people, the grass is greener because perhaps they didn't have the best of experiences in South Africa. So those people that left for adverse reasons, it possibly is greener. I don't believe that it's greener on one side or the other. I believe that it's what you make of it and if you go for the adventure and you make the most of wherever you are and have fun and just be humble, I think it's brilliant on both sides. Um, do I prefer south africa? There's not even a question of a doubt. I think my lifestyle suits me better, uh, for the outdoors etc. And the sports and all of that in south africa. But, uh, I will never, ever slate where I live, because I always make the most of it.
Speaker 1:yeah, and once a south african, always a south african African at all, that's for sure. I mean, even living in the US, you know it's Boka for life and we braai every night, you know. Try and bring that spirit back, even though we don't have a lot of South African family or friends here. Once a South African, always a South African. Rob, it's been a fantastic pleasure having you on the show. Thank you so much for your time and hopefully people take a bit of advice from you, because you gave us some fantastic advice and good luck, man, and we'll catch up with you again and get an update.
Speaker 2:Warren, I'm buying the beers when we meet up and just thank you for having me on your show 100%.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Rob, Appreciate it. Yeah, cheers, Bye-bye. Well, that really was a fantastic conversation with Rob sharing some nice insights from both sides of the continent. If anyone's looking for any information on getting work either in South Africa or the UK and wants to contact Rob, I'll put the website in the description below. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe and share it with anyone thinking about making the move. And hey, don't forget, we need sponsors to keep South Africans Abroad going. If you want to sponsor the show, head over to saabroadpodcastcom and become a sponsor. Also, leave your comments and suggestions and we'd love to hear from you and to our listeners. Check you Tuesday.
